EATS

I must say that I am flattered. I stand by my comments.

I belive there are very few, if any restaurants worth visiting outside the loop besides ethinic food (as discussed on the original thread) and maybe Babe's chicken.

I think this is because of 2 reasons:

1) Taste: Very few if any people who live outside the loop have the taste and appreciation of good food (hence the prevelance of Applebees, Chilis, Cheddars and the like)

2) Money: Most people outside of the good urban Dallas areas simply cannot afford or are not willing to pay $10 cocktails and $25 entrees. Further many people dine out at good restaurants multiple times a week, which is not the case in the burbs.

I stand by my original post and have seen nothing posted to the contrary.

For the most part I agree, but the biggest Asian populations are outside the loop north along 75 in Richardson & Plano. There is virtually no authentic Chinese inside the loop, but if you go up to Richardson and Plano there are quite a few options. (Kirin Court, First Chinese BBQ, etc)

Inside the loop does have good Indian like India Palace and Roti Grill, but there aren't many Indian groceries inside the loop. That also means there aren't many cheap hole-in-the-wall Indian places inside the loop, while they abound in Richardson. The same things could probably be said about Middle-Eastern and Vietnamese options inside the loop and out.

Other random establishments that are worth traveling outside the loop for:
* Lavendou in Far North Dallas for French
* Bavarian Grill in Plano for German (very few other German options around)
* Berry Berry in Addison for Frozen Yogurt (please open your Dallas location soon!)
* Marrakesh Cafe in North Dallas for Moroccan (Chicken Bastilla = heaven & BYOB)

Well I agree that there's a lack of destination fine dining in Plano/Frisco/Allen, but I think you're a little off base in your reasoning as to why that's so.

Taste has very little to do with how much a restaurant charges. What you're often paying for is the scene. There are plenty of expensive, trendy restaurants in Dallas where the food is no better than mediocre, but prices are high, that do a ton of business. Lack of "taste" isn't exclusive to suburbanites; plenty of people who live outside of the city are more than willing to drive down to Dallas (or Ft Worth) for a particularly good meal if it's something they can't get closer to home. Most of the fancy sushi restaurants in Dallas probably make most of their money off chicken teriyaki and California rolls; there are plenty of people without developed palates among all socioeconomic strata and throughout the metroplex. Otherwise there'd be no Starbucks inside the loop, right?

The prevalence of the chains you mention is due more to value than to lack of taste, and perhaps even moreso to a certain level of comfort. People are much more willing to go out to Applebee's (blech) than to a place where they'll be unfamiliar with the menu items, even if the unfamiliar place is (in all likelihood) a zillion times better but only slightly more expensive.

There are plenty of people in Plano that can afford to eat relatively expensive meals fairly often. Hence the thriving business places like Jasper's do. Why there aren't more places like that, minus the overpriced "comfort" food but plus something really interesting, I don't know.

Maybe it's more of mindset, but then again maybe it's just pure numbers. Within a given area of Dallas, there will be a large number of people who aren't willing to venture out to some place that's unique, but perhaps the percentage of people that will is enough to support a restaurant that would fail in Plano or Frisco.

Maybe the people that move to the suburbs are less impressed by "scene" and are therefore unwilling to pay that premium.

I know you are just trying to jerk everyone's chain there Jeff and nobody can really argue that there are many more (quantity) great restaurants inside the loop....but for the sake of stimulating this discussion, let me start at 635 and go north on the Tollway for a few miles...

Oceanaire
Grill on the Alley
Go Fish
Maximo
Del Frisco's
Kenny's
Chamberlain's (Steak & Fishmarket)
Mi Piaci
Lawry's
Maguire's
Sullivan's
Mirabelle
3 Fork's
Ruth's Chris
Tre Amici
Blue Fish
Little Katana
Yao Fuzi
Jasper's
Nicola's
Ra Sushi
Bob's

It appears this discussion has been joined on another thread:
http://www.dallasfood.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=694

Northie - I don't think I'd include Blue Fish or Bob's in that list, since they have locations within the loop as well.

Geoffrey or however his/her made up pretend pedigreed name is spelled, surely you jest. Of course there are fine restaurants outside the loop and even in places your fake character would never venture, like Fort Worth. Likewise, there are plenty of us with a taste for fine dining in burbia whom regularly trek to big D (and beyond) because of the concentration of unique establishments there. If you are serious about what you've posted, what a pathetic myopic existence you have!

Don't you realize that people don't go to chain restaurants for fine dining, they go because they don't know any better and such places are often close, quick, affordable, casual ways to feed a family on the go? Personally, I've never dined in a McDonalds in my life. Can you say the same?

There is still no good arguments against my post. Perhaps I am being a little harsh on the suburbanites. I should add one more reason for the lack of decent food outside the loop.

3) Ignorance: Since there is nothing but chain restaurants and mediocre food, it is possible that people just do not know better.

Nothie: Every place you listed that does not have a location in Dallas (usually the original location) and that I am familiar with has an equivalent in Dallas that is better. And thus, they are all sub-par and there is no reason to leave Dallas to visit them.

"Good food is where you find it":

I agree with your moniker, however, I have "not found it" outside the loop with the exceptions I listed previously and maybe a few other unremarkable places.

I have been called many things, but "fake" is not one of them. I have been to Ft Worth many times and they have some good places, Angelo's anyone? However, I specifically was referencing Dallas and its 'burbs.

There are plenty of dining options in Dallas that are not considered "fine" dining and are great alternatives to the detestable chains. There is really no excuse for "dining" if you can call it that, at a chain other than it being the only option.

I am sorry you are so offended by my observations of the truth. The truth is not always rosy. Perhaps it is you who is "myopic".

I think fast food is a little different, and yes I have "dined" at McDonalds many times. But likewise, there are many alternatives in Dallas to fast food chains as well.

WOW - you are cracking me up Jeff...I'm sure you are laughing as hard as I am...your schtick is really pretty darn good....doesn't have ANY basis for being considered legitimate, but extremely entertaining which is, I am sure, the only reason you participate in these blog...and that makes me happy because we all need a good laugh :)

b- that is precisely the reason I included those restaurants...can;t reall arguer that there are no good ones outside the loop if you consider the ones insoide teh loop to be good - right?

Well, Northie, I don't think you read my post carefully.

Quote: "I belive there are very few, if any restaurants worth visiting outside the loop besides ethinic food (as discussed on the original thread) and maybe Babe's chicken."

Quote: "Actually, there is not much worth visiting outside the loop."

Are there rare exceptions? Perhaps. But just about every restaurant you mentioned has a far superior counterpart in Dallas and are really not worth visiting, unless you want the "poor man's version" of a good Dallas restaurant.

My original rule stands.

Either way, northie, you can't include Blue Fish or Ra Sushi in that list. Those are the exact types of places that geoff is talking about, full of patrons who can't grasp the concept of good food.

Dallas food in general is pretentious just like its population.

"Keep Dallas Pretentious" and "Keep Austin Weird"

You're right about "elite" businesses opening where the affluent live, but that does not mean that people outside of those areas do not patron them, or know what fine dining and excellent food is. I live in McKinney and travel to Dallas very frequently. Sure, I would like to see more upscale restaurants in my area. And by the way, there ARE affluent people living in places outside of Dallas.

An excellent example of fine dining outside the damn loop:
Ferrari's Italian Villa
There is alot to be said for dining in and out of the loop apparently. But I wanted to give an example that shows there is indeed a reason to cross 635.

HAAAAAA!!!! Good thing you make the "rule" Jeff!!!

You are hilariously ridiculous....keep those totally myopic and ignorantly funny comments coming - this beats dinner "in the loop" for entertainment value by a mile! Seriously, I am belly laughing as I write this...

Ferrari's is EXCELLENT!

And air...not to be a total cage rattler, but I would pretty much agree with J about Dallas pretentiousness and make the statement that pretty much ALL Dallas restaurants are "full of patrons who can't grasp the concept of good food." and are only there for the "scene"

Geoff wouldn't you think this has more to do with real estate and population density? The density in the older parts of the metroplex the areas you listed) is much higher and thus the real estate in more demand in turn driving up the cost. The cost of the real estate is then in turn passed on to the clientele.

Geoff, a great idea would be to back up your posts with specific examples of restaurants in Dallas versus the suburbs in which you have tried. Also include specific dishes and then we can begin to take you seriously in your struggle to prove your point.

You are correct in that the ethnic eateries are more prevalent in the suburbs. Truthfully, I am not a fan of having braised short ribs over truffle oiled polenta in every restaurant I go to. I personally need some diversity which your "bubble" has very little of.

It is sad that you take this staunch stance and choose to divide the Dallas communities like we in the suburbs are less of citizens because we don't live up to your dining requirements.

I nominate Geoff for DMN Food editor!

I agree with Geoff and take exception to the restaurants that "Northie" listed. Most of them are LAME and can't compete with in-town Dallas restaurants.

Oceanaire - haven't tried Dallas location, other chain locations have been pretty good
Grill on the Alley - ???
Go Fish - LAME
Maximo - UNKNOWN
Del Frisco's - EXCELLENT
Kenny's- ???
Chamberlain's (Steak & Fishmarket)- Good pork chops, but LAME
Mi Piaci - LAME
Lawry's - LAME
Maguire's - LAME
Sullivan's - LAME
Mirabelle - LAME
3 Fork's - SUPER LAME
Ruth's Chris - LAME CHAIN
Tre Amici - ???
Blue Fish - DECENT SUSHI, ORIGINAL IN DALLAS
Little Katana - DECENT SUSHI, LOCATION IN DALLAS
Yao Fuzi - ???
Jasper's - LAME
Nicola's - ???
Ra Sushi - LAME
Bob's - EXCELLENT, ORIGINAL IN DALLAS

Monty,

I agree with the point that Geoff is making and no one should be that offended by what he's said. If I still lived in Addison, the difference in quality often wasn't enough for me to make the drive into Dallas, but I recognize that for just about every restaurant outside the loop, there is a better option inside. Now that I live inside the loop, I very rarely find myself driving north to eat...there are just too many good choices nearby.

I vehemently disagree with your assessment of Mi Piaci as "LAME". I've had many excellent meals there and their home-made pasta is difficult to beat. I haven't found a place inside the loop that I like better (though I've found some that are roughly equal).

What is good food to one person does not mean all will agree to this "persons" taste in food. Be it self proclaimed know it all (Let's call him Geoff shall we?) This is where I disagree with Mr Geoff and a few other disciples as we shall call them. The FACT is that these are opinionated statements. But if you want to push this on everyone else and STAUNCHLEY stand by your statement then you probably have NOT spent much time outside the Bubble as I like to call it. First off I live smack dab in the middle of the Metroplex. Big advantage for a foodie like myself. I get to try the best of both sides of the "Bubble". Bar-B-que? The best I have had as far as taste plus value is Main Street Bar-B-Que in Euless. I've been all over Texas and this is by far MY favorite place. Pho? I would have to go with Pho Hung in Arlington. Yes I have tried Pho at Legacy and the Miniscule excuses for PHo in Dallas. Some were OKAY but not as good. Chinese BarbQ? Winner is CHINA KING BARBQ in Arlington. Best in the area. I will have to agree that Dallas does have the largest of food choices and does have some of the best eateries. But don't be going around riding on your saddle telling people that don't live in the bubble they don't KNOW what good food is because somebody told you wrong mister!

"Little Katana - DECENT SUSHI, LOCATION IN DALLAS"

Where is the Little Katana location in Dallas?

Little Katana is located at Travis & Knox in Dallas

Well, now even Monty is being an uniformed jerk. Anyone serious about food in Dallas should know about the excellent Yao Fuzi (Ask Chris to order you the good stuff "off the menu").

Also - I am serious about Japanese food - (Teppo, Yutaka, Tei-An) but a real contender is Sushi Robata at Frankford and the Tollway. And don't get me started on Keiichi in Denton... yes DENTON!!!

The point is, there are a few exceptions to the general rule.

First of all, Geoff, I am assuming you penned your post for sheer shock-value. That is why I am not going to rip your ignorant, pretentious-wanna be self to shreds. I will ask, however - do you realize that there are moneyed, well-heeeled people outside the loop? I.e., Bent Tree North, neighborhoods on north Preston, very prestigous addresses in Plano? And beyond the money thing - having lots of it does not necessarily endow a person with good taste. And a fantastic meal has the most to do with the company you are with - so eating at Taco Bell can be an experience depending on who you are with.

First of all, I would like to thank all of the posters attemping to insult me. You have all proven that I am correct because not one single person has proved me wrong.

My rule stands that there is not much, if anything worth visiting outside 635, with the exceptions I listed previously.

Maybe I am wrong in my reasons for this rule. Suburbia is just full of bad taste, from tract homes to "planned communities" to the obsession that everything must be "brand new", to the souless, sterile sprawl.

Now that I reflect, I suppose it is no suprise that just about everyone in suburbia dines at Applebees, TGIF, Bahamma Breeze and [insert mediocre national chain here]. If a great restaurant with incredible, innovative food opened up, no one would show up. If a little run down shack that had the most incredible food were to appear, no one would show up to that either. Meanwhile, chain restaurants are flourishing and expanding rapidly.

So, this will be the end of my posts on this particular thread. There is no need to attempt to convince those that just don't get it. Those of us who do "get it", will continue on living and dining merrilily inside the loop and we won't be seening you at the Frisco Olive Garden anytime soon.

geoff:

When you say "besides ethinic food" - does that include German? I've never really considered Western European food to be ethnic before, but whatever...

Ignorant Sl*#s

No idea...No business.

Thanks for posting this food fight, it's been educational.

Very interesting discussion once you wade through all of the drama. Why is it that people in certain areas flock to chains vs. independents. I know there are exceptions, but in general it does seem hard for an independent to make it outside of the loop - even one that gets great press for food and atmosphere. It seems like Cheesecake Factory and Brio are always packed...and from a chain perspective, they are not cheap. I've been looking for restaurant space all over and would love to have one in Allen/McKinney - but when the developer of Village of Fairview/Village of Allen did a resident survey, the most desired restaurant was indeed Cracker Barrel...meanwhile Cheddars and Olive Garden are opening.

To Jay,

I wish you would open a restaurant in McKinney. We need "unchained" ones desperately. How about west of 75 - Stonebridge and Craig Ranch areas? Lots of development in those areas. You may want to check with Sal at Adriatica, the new development being built in McKinney. It is going to be totally awesome!

Geoff's comments are right on - very true. Unfortunately there is little choice outside the loop. We have friends that live in Frisco and Grapevine and when we try to meet them for dinner in their neighborhoods - it's almost impossible to pick anything but a chain or big, unimaginative, Planoish type restaurant. The restaurants are like the homes - all the same.